Map I'll be talking about So I was chilling playing some kz when I got a message from my boy _TOM. Basically saying hey check this map out. So I hopped on the server he was on, some random 102 tick one and the map that was on was kz_signs_v2. I'd never heard of this map before but I gave it a few runs and I loved it. Legitimately my favourite new map that I have played since starting kz (like may 2014). So I jump on the hoc forums and that to see if it had a thread in the kz testing group. It wasn't in the maps being currently voted on so I check the completed section and there it is stamped with a big fat rejected. Curious I click on it and see this: What the fuck? mfw... So I read through the comments and ratings etc to see why everyone disliked it and read this kind of thing: Textures: "its okay i guess", "okay" emphasis: a few people managed to figure out it was a combo orientated map so congratz to them Overall enjoyment: 1,2,1,2 Comments: too dark, hard to tell where to go etc... Are you fucking serious? This is one of the best maps out and people brush over it like a pile of shit. Just saying the first things that come to there mind without even a tiny bit of thought about the map. Is a map being dark and hard to go really justify you rating it 2 or 1 out of 10??????? I really think this map should be put on this server and here's my reasoning for why I love this map so much: * First of the map looks incredible, you simply cannot deny that. It's inspired by "Penumbra game series" and although I have not played that just a quick search for it on google images shows he done a damn good job with that. He uses custom textures, sounds, decals and sprites all to help make it look like it does. Up your graphics options and then play this map. * The flow of the map is great. The jumps and overall flow of this map are made from a variety of styled jumps with different height offsets and distances with a few very basic ladders too that people with a more than basic grasp of ladders can use to their advantage to cut a few seconds off their run. * As far as I know there are no perfect bhop shortcuts that skip more than like 2/3 jumps and all the single block skips on the map are well placed and add great competition to the map. Now I don't want to shout out specific maps that are already on the server but some of the maps that get accepted nowadays are complete garbo. They look like shit and if it even has a flow to the map it's so uninteresting and linear it puts me straight to sleep. Can you seriously justify denying a map because it's dark and not 100% obvious where the intended route is the first time you play. Is Hoc just going to deny every dark atmosphered map? If so remove maps like excavate. Hey maybe I'm just chasing that feeling of looking of where to go the first time I ever kz'ed or maybe I just have a hard on for maps like this. But if I see another map with boring as fuck textures trying to copy zprinces or badg3s style I think I'm going to vomit, most of them maps also have the shittiest most linear boring jumps imaginable too. Now sorry about the rant, just annoys me to see maps like this (kz_crypt, kz_rainrun_kn2 these aren't as good but still) get rejected. And then see the same boring shit get approved, it really does seem the only maps people want to run are those with basic textures and only one obvious route, the moment a bit of detail gets added to the map people get all hostile and start complaining it's too hard to see etc. Any chance some people could play the map again with an open mind and see if you change your mind? Or at least tell me why you hate it so much besides it's dark and not obvious where to go. Thanks, yo boy Flux
But this is why we have the test group. One persons personal opinion shouldn't weight more than the groups. IMO, it wasnt to dark and as you can see I loved the textures. Prop maps for me is satan and sure it was confusing but as you said - you learn it. You still have to think from an idiots point of view when you review these maps, how will the community like it? And so forth. I felt the flow wasnt that great as you stated, it might not be deserving the rating I gave it but it still isn't getting an approve from me. Edit: Also, if you liked this map so much maybe you should had been active during this time it was voted upon and tried to convince people to see the things you saw.
If you read the comments you know that I didn't get to run it, because it was bugged and I couldn't actually get to start the map. Already here it should be enough to be rejected until fixed. Then I spectated another tester running it, and it looked pretty boring and confusing to me - not my style. And it's not a map I think new players will like very much, since they often get frustrated not knowing where to go.
It's really not a prop map. 99% of the jumps are brushes and the props you do have to jump on have collision models almost identical to their physical look. If we thought from an idiots point of view the only maps that would be approved would be easy as shit, new players are going to be more tolerant of a map where it's hard to find where to go than a map where they can't do the first jump. No one sticks up for newcomers when there's 10 of them stuck on the first lj on apricity, the first bhop on synergy_x or the second jump on blueberry. This is the type of map that when a new player can't figure out where to go they at least have the skill to try all the options for them, and once they've made the intended jump it's pretty obvious. I wasn't able to vote on this when it was being actively voted on because I couldn't kz at the time. Also does everyone really think newcomers would get frustrated at where to go? I remember when I first started kz a map with a good theme was great even if I couldn't figure out where to go at first. There are some maps that are harder to figure out where to go because the actual jump they're supposed to do might be hard for them so they might not be sure it's even possible and with this map that's clearly not the case.
In my expierence people prefer doing work on hard jumps than they do trying to constantly figure out where to go, and they feel a lot better when they finish the map after who knows how many hours.
Really? Load up any hard map within 10 minutes the amount of people in the server will have at least halved. Load up a map with a confusing route, looks nice but isn't too hard the whole server will be full in no time. I'm not just making that up, I see that happen all the time.
Ok lets go through this then. "I really think this map should be put on this server and here's my reasoning for why I love this map so much:" This is a personal opinion, even-though I agree with you. I tend not to agree with you on this point, the flow isn't superb. It has good flow at some parts but saying that it has great flow is debatable. Having bad maps on the server already doesn't justify adding new "bad/disapproved" maps. We have a remove map discussion which is semi-active. I agree with you here, it is shameful that some of these maps that are good gets rejected. But as it is a group-decision it has to be accepted, otherwise the test group is unnecessary. The test group imo is somewhat flawed - but that's another discussion. Yea, forgot that u were at uni. I agree with you here, confusion is just the first stage of learning. Nothing wrong with it. This was in general, not map specific. You have to weight in the community's probable opinion on the map - not if the map is to hard or not. And I believe this will be one of the hated maps that will get rtv'ed as soon as it comes on. You've still raised the question about this map and I'll give it a go to try it once more.
When I'm thinking of maps here I'm thinking about kz_colors_v2, kz_adv_cursedjourney and kz_gy_agitation, with colors and agitation being the harder but less confusing maps, and I feel like they're more popular amongst new players, and their reaction when finishing is very different between the maps.
Reply to squared (Not quoting post too long): Seems it's obvious there's a flaw in the test group I agree with you there. The range of maps and kz preferences within the group is clearly very narrow and doesn't accurately represent a wide range of players opinions. To krushed: From my experience the 3 maps mentioned are unique cases due to all 3 maps being very long (All 3 WR's 15 minutes+). The reason newer players often play through these maps and feel so happy about completing them is often because they've heard they're really hard maps and take a long time to complete. I remember when I first started playing I used to think that about Cursed (which is very popular despite being insanely hard to determine where to go for a new player).
When it comes to things like this would it be crazy if we did the retribution treatment? Just send some maps to the VIP server (where from my perspective the players are generally better and more open for challenges). Especially when the logic may be the paths are to hard to find or the jumps are just to hard for the new/casual players. I think this should of been done with signs and failed fast run (maybe a few more) but that's my opinion. Let me know what you think :angel:
As I stated in the following post, the "idiot" thing was not the difficulty of the map but their opinion on the maps. RTVing as soon as a map comes on and so on. I didn't say no to signs due to the confusion, I thought it was a bad map (Personal opinion). It got 0/8 votes, doubt every single one of those was due to "confusion" and difficult pathing. As far as the difficult maps getting transfered to the VIP server; This will only work on US as EU doesn't have a VIP server, neither does any of the 102 tick. Either way that would be up to Kask
Ok I see what your saying, but now i'm curious do you not think that is their main reasoning though? I'm sure not being able to identify the map (first run or so) or complete jumps will be the case way more often then appearance, etc. I wasn't actually trying to go against what you said but more of how I think of the "will the community like it" aspect.
Yes it would be crazy if we gave signs the retri treatment, it isn't a difficult map at all, there would be zero reason to just have it on VIP. The thing about hard to find paths and jumps is a retarded case for signs, it would take a person with any common sense 5 seconds to figure out where to go, they do the wrong jump, realize this isn't the right way, tp back or jump back and its problem solved. I'll agree with squared that the map is a little dark but other than that he did an amazing job on the map itself, the props arent aids and even if the jumps are boring, for a beginner this map is 10/10. I've stopped testing maps after kz_oldstuff got added because I feel like it's a joke to add unfinished maps to the pool and feel like my input doesn't matter/isn't needed.
I'll respond to stuff, because I still exist: 1) Like I said on the test server yesterday, the map looks fantastic, but I wouldn't run it more than once. That being said, I didn't vote on the map in the first place. 2) kz_oldstuff was a split decision 5-5, it was also 4 months ago - shortly after making the test group. Maps usually get the benefit of the doubt. If they aren't glaring terrible or super broken, I usually side with adding the map on split decisions. It was also approved separately by the Global Map group.. just saying. 4) If kz_oldstuff is the most abhorrent map that has been approved by the test group out of 80ish maps so far, than I'd say it's doing pretty good. 5) If anyone has suggestions for how to improve the test group, I'm all ears. I've added dozens of people to it over the last 4-5 months, but activity levels peak and valley like everything else. There's a pretty wide range of people in the group, from NA/EU and both pre and no-pre servers, so I feel like most demographics are covered. 6) The test group is designed to weed out broken maps, and to be a bellweather for how the community would like a map. Hence why I usually add most people who apply. If everyone votes against a map, even if you think it's the best thing since bluetooth.. well, that says a lot about how it will likely be perceived by the playerbase. 7) We do remove maps from time to time. If you feel like a map is broken/terrible/not fun, you can ask an admin or myself about removing it. The removal process is more involved than the approval process, which I feel is as should be. 8) I don't know, someone distracted me, and I forgot what else there was to say..
i dont play csgo kz anymore but kz_signs is easily one of the top 10 maps ive played, shows that the map approval system is flawed. have a server dedicated to testing new maps that runs a map for a set amount of time and have a plugin ask you how you rate maps based on: ambience, balance/scaling, design, detail, gameplay. or dont
