It's a potential exploit, which not siding on either side at the moment as I've heard both sides The crouch+jump+non forward on movement can be found here if wanted for the time being, which miracle has openly disclosed here: http://gyazo.com/3ce3dcfcaf096b4a8f35c9d0cdd0c8cb Debate on whether or not the consensus feels as though it should be allowed (admin ruling aside) should be discussed here, and here only. Feel free to comment your opinions.
I've improved upon this so you do not need to press space in order to stand back up. alias +LJ "+duck; +jump; +klook" alias -LJ "-duck; -jump; -klook" bind space +LJ This cannot be used with the mouse wheel because it has no release. You will have to hold down which ever key you bind this to in order to stay crouched. This is better because -forward only blocks input for 1 frame while +klook blocks the forward input for the duration of the key press. I think this should be allowed because it is only using console commands and is not using any external software. This should be open and spread as much as possible. Thanks.
So basically, if anyone doesn't know how this works; if you press crouch before you jump, and perfectly time it so you don't lose any of your speed but still manage to press it before you jump, it becomes a highjump and you get more height than normal on the jump, allowing you to get more airtime and jump further. This bind does that automatically for you, you don't have to press anything and you will gain the extra height for doing nothing. Personally I can't even see why this is being argued, it's blatantly cheating IMO. Comparing it to mousewheel like a lot of people have done isn't really fair, as it's not even close to being the same thing. Using mousewheel to jump makes the process easier, but it's still YOU who have to press the button and time the jump, there's a skill in that that many take for granted. Also, learning to jump with mousewheel isn't that hard at all, you can do it in a day, whereas the highjump longjump is something that takes a lot of time to master. The bind makes all of this automatic for you, you don't have to press a single button and you are still guaranteed to get a perfect highjump every time.
This is tricky... I think it should be allowed, but everyone should be made aware. Crouch jumping is a bug itself and is not consistent. These binds are great because it allows us to consistently overcome the otherwise inconsistent jumps in maps.
But the crouch jump itself isn't inconsistant at all. Doing it as a normal highjump works every time if you do it correctly, and a lot of the good LJers without pre strafe use this method consistantly to get record jumps, it's common to do on 64tick KZ servers. It's just ridiculously hard to master, and even harder when you have to do it while you pre strafe before a LJ. Nobody who LJ's with pre strafe uses this technique either, cause it's so hard, so what's the problem with having nobody do it compared to having everyone do it like you suggest?
There's also another bind that people have started using as of today, which is combining this with -forward. This automatically let's go of W for you after you press jump, so it's wayyyyy easier to get better sync on your first strafe since you don't have to perfectly let go of W as soon as you start using A/D. Should also be banned IMO. EDIT: Didn't realize Logos brought this up in his post.
I'm a complete noob, but I fully agree with this statement. The script mentioned above removes a skill that KZers have had to master, and automates an action that isn't easy to replicate with consistent accuracy. I can't think of any other argument to make against implementing such a script. Its as blatant as a bhop script. I keep hearing that it can help add up to two units of distance, which can be a lot of units for the pros, and it just seems like a cheap way to one up competition for the pro records. Sorry if I offend anyone with my comments, I know I'm inexperienced with KZ, but this just comes across as a blatant script that automates movement.
@pLekz Yeah the bind I made does the highjump and also blocks w input with 1 key press. I'll leave it up to the mods to decide whether or not it is allowed. I'll respect whatever decision they make. The only reason I don't think it should be bannable is because it's not using anything other than console command which are allowed. Yes it makes things easier but everyone can use it, the playing field is still even. This places more emphasis on strafing rather than trying to perfect a highjump.
Right, I guess it depends on how you look at it, personally I don't think that it should be allowed just because it's doable in the console, that doesn't justify it for me, it's still something that reduces a part of the insane skillcap KZ has. And as I said in my second post, the playing field is already even. I'm pretty sure literally nobody in the Top 20 LJ on our server uses the crouchjump, because it's so hard to master when you use pre. We don't need to move from one even playing field to another when all it does is lower the potential skillcap.
As one of the people that found this, I feel like it doesn't matter if this does or does not stay. The +duck bind yields at least 1 tick of extra air time. This raises the capacity for the highest longjump and possibly wierdjump by a couple of units. In a way I sort of feel like this is no big deal given that this is a prestrafe enabled server, where this tactic is so hard to master. I was able to get a 279 unit longjump without the bind, and a 281 with it. During the 279 jump I manually crouched to hit that height. In practicing doing that manually, at this point, I no longer feel like when combined with prestrafe it can be done on any consistent basis. When I'm absolutely on fire I can get it 7/10 times at best, but most times it is far from that consistent. Because of this, I don't feel like it is punishing to anybody that could do this manually that there is now an automated method, because there is absolutely nobody that I am aware of currently capable of doing this perfectly every time when it must be combined with the motion of a prestrafe. The way I view it, it is raising the number that is the absolute maximum that can be jumped, but it isn't changing how people rank. If everybody currently in the top 20 jumped the exact jump that got them there, but with this bind, they'd still all rank the same, the numbers would just be higher. It may be thought that this could be an issue for making jumps in maps easier, however, done the way that the gyazo link in the original post shows, the time it takes to execute this, do the jump, and switch back, would be the same amount of time as if you failed the jump 2 or 3 times before making it. Also, this isn't technically automated, at least how I see it. You are still manually crouching, you have just moved what would be separate key presses onto a single button in a way that toggles it on, rather then simply activating it. You are still manually engaging the crouch function by scrolling. It is just an improved method for actually doing that. As far as calling this a script goes, well, it isn't third party software. It is something completely built in to the game. In my book, what is built into the game, and is efficient, but not automated, is not a script. Unfair or not, I'm going to stick to calling this a bind. Another point I'd like to make is that depending on how you see this, it can clarify who is the best at certain types of jumps. If the main focus point of a longjump is how well a person can strafe, down to width, timing, and sync, then this bind takes a variable out of the way that may not be the most relevant part of the longjump in terms of skill, as you can learn to consistently sync well, but I doubt you can learn to consistently hit this crouch jump given that the server is using prestrafe. In regards to the ducking aspect of this bind, I suppose I support it, but at the same time, I won't be too upset to see it go. Like I said, it changes numbers, but not skill levels. The best is still the best. As far as the minus forward part of the bind goes I think there is a misunderstanding as to what this actually does, or at least, a misrepresentation through how it has been worded by others. It isn't giving you heightened sync for no reason, and it doesn't make you more consistent at syncing necessarily. What it does is make sure that your first strafe isn't cut short by a millisecond delay in when you release W or whatever your forward key is. You still have to sync well and make the strafe as perfect as can be to maximize it. It doesn't inherently give you an advantage over somebody not using the bind that has good w release timing, and it doesn't artificially inflate the length of the jump. If anything should remain unbanned, it is this part. I don't feel like it should be banned because the timing that you release w at is heavily influenced by what hardware you have, specifically the keyboard. This is a case where a certain switch type or mechanical vs standard keyboard isn't necessarily better than the other, but they vary. The actuation of a key, like pressing a strafe key in combination with mouse movement, is something much less difficult to time then the letting go of a key, like when you take off, if your keyboard is sub-optimal. I think that certain keyboards may give players an advantage here and allowing the -forward bind is a fair way to level the playing field. That being said, holding w through this jump, even with minus forward, does seem to mess it up. So it may help you at the beginning of the strafe, you still have to do everything else right. This part of the bind is nowhere near as game changing as the +duck part. I don't see it as unfair. In regards to both of these, if we are to forbid them, you also have to take into consideration how difficult it would be to enforce that rule. No point in setting a rule that can't be enforced consistently, letting "cheaters" run around using it not getting caught and making "legitimate" jumpers suffer. Also, if this isn't something that can be automatically detected or clearly discerned from the stats of a jump or watching a player, which it isn't to my knowledge, it's pretty hard to make it against the rules. To conclude, I suppose I feel that these things should be allowed. They aren't really negatively impacting anything, although they make an impact. They also don't effect the core of kz, actually running maps, but only a small aspect, one, maybe two, types of jumps. Though I didn't mention arguments for the opposite side in my post, I fully understand where they come from and there are some valid points to be made. However, I don't feel like this is a matter where we can say it is explicitly wrong for one reason or another, but one where we have to weigh the pros and cons and decide the best route to take. I feel like the way it impacts jumping and the degree it impacts kz as a whole are insignificant, especially considering the difficulty to likely be found in banning it. At the end of the day however, banned or not, I don't really care a whole lot. Every jumper using this now will simply adapt to the change.
This is exactly what i'm saying. What's the point of moving from one even playing field to another? There is still that potential that some legit players can get ridiculous longjumps using this technique, why would we remove this just so EVERYONE can gain 2 units extra from doing absolutely nothing? This is just bullshit in my opinion, who cares what it is "technically"? It's not manually crouching because YOU are not pressing the crouch button, the computer does it for you. Completely disagree with this, there's no main focus point when setting records, the hard part is doing all of it at once, that's what gives it such an incredibly high skillcap, why just remove one aspect of it because we can? I also completely disagree with this point. Like I just said above, being able to do all these things in one jump is what makes longjumps so hard. I've seen tons of people who struggle with letting go of W at the right time, it's another thing to master when it comes to jumping. All this does is remove another part of the skillcap. As far as the hardware argument goes, I don't see why it's relevant. There will always be differences when it comes to hardware and it isn't fair for everyone, but IMO that isn't a reason to remove one of the aspects that if affects. One could say the same thing about people having different mouse and mousewheels that aren't as good as some others, should we start using bunnyhop scripts and strafe scripts as well because it makes it fair for everyone? (Obviously exaggerated my point as fuck, but you catch my drift) This is a very good point and I'm not sure how it would be solved, but if there is a way to detect this in any way then i'm all for removing it. I guess this is the core of why you and I think differently, personally I see lowering the skillcap as a big problem, whereas you don't.
I probably have no say in this but, I feel like a bind that performs numerous actions in one tap is making a jump more easy, as it removes elements in a longjump. If you don't have to focus on releasing W and pressing crouch at the right time then it takes some skill out of the equation compared to doing the whole thing at the same time. When I heard about this people were making the analogy that well, if this script isn't allowed then mousewheel jump shouldn't be either. But changing jumping from spacebar to mousewheel is only 1 action being changed. However when multiple actions get into one button, i would say it becomes too much. If multiple actions are allowed into one button, when does it become too much? I'm a shit longjumper and can only hit 270 when stars align, but even then I feel like a part of the skill is releasing w at the correct time and getting that height with crouch. Also, I don't doubt that Miracle would hit a 280 with or without this script, but even for him it should be considered much going from 279.5 to 281 with this one bind yeah? That last 1 unit from 280 to 281,2 is a lot.
Sup, first of all calling this little bind "cheat / hack" is stupid. Yea it might lower the required skill to be good at longjumping but anything thats doable within the game's possibilities should not be forbidden. Saying that this bind gives you an advantage over other players might be true but so does everything that can be changed through your autoexec or config file (fps,reg. etc). Wanna ban all that? No! imo _TOM
This bind is currently allowed and will continue to be allowed for the foreseeable future as far as I'm aware. It's publicly available to everyone on the forums, and as it is only a series of binds which solely effects people who are going for longjump records (anyone whose attempting an LJ record can be redirected here), it will continue to be allowed. I understand the opinions on both sides of the argument, but barring some game-breaking exploit using these binds or others which are similar (such as top time exploits, SCs, etc.) there's no reason to ban these series of binds. Personal opinions aside, there's nothing inherently game-breaking about this as it's publicly available and only has a small affect on a very small percentage of users as of late.
Personally i don't like it, it does lower the skill gap which doesn't kill the game of course but still cant deny that it changes small aspects of kzing. Probably will be continued to be allowed as there is no major reason as to why it shouldn't be allowed. note* hate it how chat gets spammed with reds lol
i would be a little more careful about that. for example: i'm pretty sure most people would consider this setup to be illegal http://i.imgur.com/LM6m3gq.jpg when you press q it strafes to the right and when you release it strafes to the left. so all you need to do would be to pre, jump, and mash q... and you get robotically perfect strafes with near perfect sync for every strafe. http://i.imgur.com/pcAULv3.jpg it's not really possible to jump much further than 270 with this but still you can hit 260-270 consistently
now all the people who cant LJ will just use this lol. peronally im just learning the hard way without any scripts or anything.
so........ guys for w-jumps with no move movement or strafing if you crouch then jump, you always get 64.8 height and 225.3 distance if you crouch and jump simultaneously, as the script does, you always get 66.0 height and 227.3 distance i was w-jumping on a 225 block today, and i noticed that by manually crouch jumping, it's not always 227.3 units jump which make it across. sometimes i jump 229.2 units. without strafing or mouse movement......... only key used is w does this mean there is potentially another unit of height possible, or another tick of air time, by manually crouch jumping off blocks? edit: alt tabbed back and now i cant do it any more
I know this topic so old but: [KZ] LJ: 272.42 units [9 Strafes | 275 Pre | 329 Max | 65 Height | 81% Sync] [265 block] PB Image nr2 LJ on 64 so easy Make server tickrate 64 to prove it to you: D
*bump* Given the kztimer 1.87 update ( thread Major KZTimer update to 1.87 ), and the associated wipe of various global map times, the larger kz community has spoken and declared crouch-jump bind a cheat.
